not enough. we need to go at this with both fists, private and public, and do it soon. soon enough to get this recovery zooming. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in," the future of cars is not only super cool. it could make us all live longer. i'll talk about saving the planet one car at a time. also, if you're not sure how you feel about the practice of solitary quamt, tonight you'll hear from a man who spent eight years in solitary and the toll it has taken on him as a free man. the foreclosure crisis left a lot of people without any help and without any hope. but one city has finally taken steps to deal with the problem and actually get struggling

homeowners back on their feet. and guess what, the banks hate it. we begin tonight with vacation! as of tonight, everyone's favorite congress is officially on lerecess. and there is nothing better than taking some well-deserved time off after you spent months and months working really hard. here's what congress has done this year. they've passed and sent the president 22 bills. that sounds like a lot of progress for seven months? let me assure you it is not. here's how much congress had gotten done by the august recess going back to 2006 when democrats first took over. it used to be they were getting somewhere around three times as many bills passed in the same amount of time. but not anymore. now, of course, to be fair, john boehner famously told us all last week not to judge congress' productivity based on how many bills they passed. that's crazy talk. >> should not be judged on how many new laws we create. we ought to be judged on how many laws we repeal. >> okay, speaker, let's give that a try. how many laws has congress

repealed this year? zero. zero laws. they have not actually successfully repealed anything. now, in all fairness to speaker boehner, house republicans have in fact taken many, many votes to repeal obama care. they have voted for repeal several times this year. for a grand total since boehner became house speaker of 40 aimless, pointless, symbolic votes that will not result in anything actually being repealed. that includes one of the last votes they took today before heading out for vaca. how should we evaluate this congress, how should we figure their quarterly grades? here are some numbers we could judge the 113th congress by. thanks to the sequester that members of this congress allowed to happen or openly cheered for they're responsible for 700 fewer research grants for the national institutes of health. around 750 fewer patients admitted to nih clinical center. roughly 752,000 civilian employees in the department of defense furloughed. 4 million fewer meals for needy seniors for meals on wheels

program. there's 11 million undocumented immigrants whose very presence in the united states would become a federal crime under a republican measure passed in committee in the house. and approximately 300,000 dreamers who have already been given legal student who would be at risk of deportation under a house-passed amendment. there's the $38 billion the senate passed immigration bill would spend on militarizing the u.s./mexico border, including the 19 border agents per mile of the border. and the 11,000 american women who would lose access to abortion under a house-passed abortion ban. the 4.1 billion in cuts to the food stamps program passed by the senate. probably the easiest grade the 113th congress has is this. approval rating of 8%. i don't know about you but i think 8% sounds like a really low "f." join me is michael steele, former republican national committee chairman. my wrong? the united states congress, particularly the house of

representatives, is a total disaster? >> yeah, it is. it's been almost a little bit embarrassing to say that, because of the gravity of the issues that you've talked about and pointed out on this show and others, that you think people would recognize, yes, immigration, health care, the economy. the economy, jobs, what about a jobs bill? what about putting things on the table that will put people back to work? the unemployment rate, yes, 7.4%. but you still have a significant flatlining of employment for those who are out there looking, who have been reduced from full to part-time. so this congress has let a lot of things slip by them. playing to an audience, and i don't know who that audience is, other than themselves and the folks down at the other end of 1600 pennsylvania avenue. because the rest of us are sitting here scratching your heads. and you're going on vacation for 30 days? >> the thing i have to say about it is this. you and i are going to have very

different prescriptions for solving the economy and i'm going to have different ideas. but i feel like this congress in particular, more than the last congress, this congress in particular is not even being competently managed by particularly speaker boehner. yesterday, this week, you have this crazy thing where they're going to do a routine appropriations bill to fund hud and transportation and they had to pull it because it didn't look like they had the votes. it just seems to me like it's almost this king is dead game of thrones feudal warfare on the house side in which there's no actual coherent, unified leadership to push an agenda, were there actually an agenda. >> well, i think, you know, the partisanship aside, i think it's a fair point. you're absolutely right. you and i, as we would see in the house, between republicans and democrats, would have a different prescription for how to solve the problem. that's if we actually got in the room and sat down to try to work out the prescription to solve the problem. they're not doing that. and the concern that i see, particularly for the gop going into next year, is that what is

going to be the conversation with the country? how do you convince the country that you're serious about promoting the business of the nation, the business of communities that are out there trying to make ends meet, when you look at the record and see not much is getting done? >> there's two big items, i think, on the horizon when congress comes back. there's, what is going to become of the immigration bill the senate has passed? is it going to get a vote in the house? and right now, i feel like boehner's painted in such a corner that he's doing the old stall tactic. like, if he pretends it's not there, if everyone just goes along. but i don't think -- you think the stall tactic is going to work? they're going to have to have an accountability moment. >> yeah, there is that moment where you're going to have to sit down and the heads will have to be counted and the hands will have to be raised to cast the vote. beyond see how they get through this congress. coming back in september and not at least make a good faith effort at passing an immigration

bill, particularly given that the senate has done its part. you need to get a bill to conference. let the members in the house and the senate go to conference, work out a bill to get to the president's desk. we need to stop this obama can't get a win. because in the process, we're hurting ourselves. we're seeing -- seen as obstructionist, we're not seen as promoting and progressing is agenda in a way the people see the nation's business getting done. there's no clearer example of that than on the gun issue. this is where it hits both democrats and republicans. the nation, 90% of the nation say we want something done on this. and they blinked. they took a pass. they didn't address it. and the same is true on this issue with immigration. so i think there's a real setup potential here for disaster next year. if we don't play close attention to getting something done between now and note, you're ri there were some democrats balking at assault weapons

legislation but that was largely republicans, particularly in the senate. the other thing on the horizon is the idea that cruz, lee and paul have, senators, to essentially precipitate a government shut-down of some sort unless obama care is defunded. a lot of people are saying that's a bonkers idea, what do you think of that? >> i have to agree with the republican leaders who feel that this is not the message we want to send to the country that is still trying to deal with this economy. and, you know, the idea that the way you're going to do is basically hold it hostage, to hold the economy hostage, hold families and communities hostage, those who are federal employees, it doesn't make sense to me. look, i'm all for, you know, taking care of obama care, getting it right. we know it's a problem. max baucus on the left, others on the the right, have said this needs to be fixed. i don't think this is the way to get it done. again, if they're a problem, put your solutions on the table. >> that's the issue. the solutions. the solutions are missing.

michael steele, former rnc chairman, thank you very much. >> you got it, my friend. democratic congressman rick noel of minnesota, elected in 1974, left in 1980, then spent 32 years as a businessman before being re-elected to congress last november. so congressman, you have this really unique perspective on this congress. and you can speak to in a historical context of whether this congress is as bad as i said it is. what do you think? >> well, it is bad. i mean, the pundits, the experts, have looked at it. and we're on the road to becoming the most unproductive congress in the history of the united states. and, you know, i would have thought speaker boehner understood the legislative process when he said, as you quoted him at the beginning of the show, you know, it's a good thing not to pass any bills and put any more laws on the books. the fact is that when you pass a

bill, it becomes law, it can either be repealing something, it can be changing something, it can be protecting and preserving something. but we're doing very darn little of any of the above. >> you and i have spoken before about some of the big differences between when you were in congress the first time and in congress now that are deeper necessarily than john boehner's having a hard time controlling his caucus and speak to just how much members of congress are actually working right now. how much time they're spending doing the people's business, how much time they're spending fund raising. what has changed in those three decades since the last time you were in the capitol? >> well, chris, there are a lot of little changes and big changes. the two big changes, the flip side of the same coin. my last election contest added up to like over $20 million. my previous one was only a couple hundred thousand dollars. the pros up here on the hill tell members that they should be spending 30 hours a week in the

republican and democratic call centers across the street dialling for dollars. one level it's understandable. the political scientists tell us the ones with the most money generally get the most votes. the flip side of that coin is that we're not spending our time governing. i had my staff do a little research on the number of subcommittee and committee meetings that we had when i served in the past. and the three terms that i served, we spent between 7,000 and 8,000 subcommittee meetings. this congress has had somewhere between 400 and 500. >> wow. >> so people are spending all their time raising money instead of governing which is what we're expected to do here. >> here's the other question i have. there's a troep that we have in the progressive press and on this network about, these republicans are the worst republicans ever, and they're just so extreme. and i believe that. i don't say it because i don't believe it. but i also wonder what your perspective, having served with an earlier cohort of

republicans, are these republicans, particularly house. house republicans, are they more extreme, are they more willing to ascent to norms in place? >> i was surprised to see the extent they subscribe to the grover norquist philosophy, which norquist has said time and time again, let's squeeze the federal government down to a size so small we can get it into a bathtub and drown it. and that seems to be the philosophy of the extreme right, which is making governance virtually impossible for boehner. can't put together a majority for anything. there's only been like 22 bills that have been passed that have become law. a bunch of those are naming post offices. >> a bunch of the other big ones had the votes supplied by nancy pelosi, the democrats, to actually get -- >> exactly. hurricane sandy, the debt ceiling, violence against women. >> when you take away those and you take away the post office

namings you're basically left with the obama repeal votes and that's what you have. congress man rick nolan of minnesota, thank you so much, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. after years without any substantial progress across the country, one city has a bold plan to help struggling homeowners. the city's mayor joins me next. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button? [ beeping ] ♪ [ male announcer ] we don't just certify our pre-owned vehicles. we inspect, analyze and recondition each one, until it's nothing short of a genuine certified pre-owned...

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coming up, a rescue plan so simple and so obvious you'll wonder why it wasn't implemented across the country four years ago. later you'll meet a man who spent eight years in solitary confinement. turned his life around but he wants to turn the practice of indefinite isolation into a thing of the past. you hire right the first time with honest reviews on over 720 local services. i want it done right. i don't want to have to worry about it or have to come back and redo it. with angie's list, i was able to turn my home into the home of my dreams. for over 18 years, we've helped people take

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day by day we get numbers that the country's entering into a significant housing recovery. in some areas of the country it almost looks like another bubble. 20 large u.s. cities' home prices have increased an average of 12% since last year. according to a just-released survey comparing may 2012 to may of this year. in four cities, san francisco, las vegas, phoenix, atlanta, twices are up 20% or more year to year. yet just like the overall economic recovery itself, it looks like this housing recovery is incredibly uneven. certain areas are really recovering while others are not. for the areas that are not, there's still six years after the bubble burst dealing with the foreclosure crisis that no one has ever really dealt with. the areas in red and pink on this u.s. map show the percentage of homes that are under water in any given region. that means homeowners owe more in their mortgage than the house itself is worth. pink and red areas have 30% to 100% of their homes under water.

in contra costa county, california, near san francisco, 33% of the homes are under water, according to this data. but one town in that county is finally doing something about it. the city of richmond, california, has offered to buy the mortgages of more than 600 underwater homes at market value from the banks that hold those mortgages. richmond's mayor gale mclocklin says the city would help the homeowners refinance at an affordable rate. if the banks refuse to participate the city is prepared to use eminent domain to buy those mortgages. joining me to explain this man is richmond mayor gail mclaughlin. why are you going to do this and how's it going to work? >> well, let me tell you, chris, the housing crisis is not over in the city of richmond, california. just last year alone, we had over 900 foreclosures. and nearly half of the mortgages in the city of richmond are under water.

and this clearly destabilizes families, destabilizes neighborhoods, and hurts the city as a whole. the banks sold my community predatory loans and now they have no solution. so the city is stepping in. we're taking these troubled loans off the hands of the banks. and we're paying them fair market value for them. and then we're working with the homeowners to help them refinance and to refinance at the current -- in line with current home values. >> so we're clear about what fair market value means, current value, which means the loss, the haircut, is taken by the bank? >> it's a fair market value as the industry indicates what fair market value is. it's something that, you know, under water means that the current value of the home is way under what the original mortgage was. and we're doing this. we're doing this in partnership with others. we have a private firm, mortgage

resolution partners, that is providing the funding and the technical assistance, and we have a community group called a.c.e., alliance of californians for community empowerment, that's doing the community outreach. >> do you have the legal authority to do this? >> we absolutely have the legal authority to do this. we call on the banks first of all to voluntarily sell us these mortgages at fair market value. but if they won't, we have the option to utilize eminent domain. eminent domain is for a public purpose. and the public purpose in ra choiring these mortgages is to keep foreclosures from happening in our neighborhoods, which creates blight, which creates lower property values. the blight draws crime in. and our overall economy suffers as a result of lower property values and such. >> aren't the banks going to absolutely go bananas if you do this? they're going to fight you tooth and nail, they're going to sue

you, they're going to threaten not to lend. are you prepared for what the banks are going to do if you do this? >> yes, absolutely. first of all, our apolice department with mrp, marked resolution partners, is that we are totally infell that guide by them. any legal costs incurred will be made by mrp. but when the banks threaten to, you know, do -- not lend to families in richmond, we -- families moving into richmond, that is illegal. so we clearly think that if those policies were implemented, we have the option of bringing them to court and bringing legal action against them. >> mayor gail mclocklin of richmond, california, i hope you are as tough as you sound in this because they're going to bring a world of hurt down against you and i'm really happy to see someone taking the reins on this. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. coming up, i'll talk with a current uc berkeley student who spent eight years in solitary confinement. la's known definitely for its traffic,

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there's a very strong case to be made. it's a case that i personally find very compelling. that on any given day, 80,000 people are being tortured in the united states. this is the number of people who are not beaten, not waterboarded, but who are in solitary confinement on any given day in prisons across the country. isolated in a cell alone for 22 hours or more a day, oftentimes for years on end, indefinitely.

it's a practice that has been criticized almost universally by human rights and civil liberties groups across the country. a 2011 u.n. report found that solitary confinement can amount to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment and even torture. and there is no state whose solitary confinement practices are more under the microscope right now than california. where hundreds of prisoners are on hunger strike protesting, among other things, the state's infamous solitary confinement practices. according to officials there are 477 inmates in six prisons on hunger strike right now. today signaling the protests are in fact making an impact, california corrections secretary jeffrey beard will meet with members of a coalition representing the strikers. but that protest is just one of the challenges being made to california's prison system right now. in 2011, the supreme court agreed california's prisons violated the eighth amendment's ban on cruel and unusual punishment and found the prison system led to needless suffering and death.

that's a goat. the court ordered california governor jerry brown to reduce the state's prison population by 30,000 people. after partially complying with that order, brown asked the court to block the requirement on the remaining 10,000 prisoners. and today he was rebuffed. the supreme court of the united states refused to let california delay the release of thousands of inmates from state prisons to relieve crowding. it's a blow to the state's barbaric and seemingly lawless mass incarceration system. and i wanted to talk to someone who has lived through it. steven sifra is a 38-year-old student at uc berkeley, a man who spent a total of 16 years in california's correctional system. eight of those in solitary confinement. while he was in prison at a secure housing unit at pelican bay state prison he spent 22 1/2 hours in his cell each day and was only allowed 90 minutes outside of his cell which he would spend alone in a concrete, windowless pen. steven joins me now from berkeley, california.

my first question is, how did you end up in prison in the first place? >> breaking the law. stealing cars. just -- basically delinquent. >> when you were in prison, how did you go from being in general population, what was the thing that triggered going from general population to being placed in solitary confinement? >> well, for years up until just before going into solitary confinement, i was a model prisoner. i worked as a teacher's assistant teaching other inmates how to do office work. just before i was set to parole, i got in a fight with another inmate. and while on my way to my cell, i spit on one of the officers. and they gave me four years in security housing unit for that. >> wait a second, you got four years in solitary for spitting? >> yeah, for spitting on an officer. and they gave me -- they tried to give me a three strikes case. and the judge on the trial confirmation date didn't agree

that taking the rest of my freedom was worth -- was commensurate with the crime. so they gave me four more years in prison and four years in solitary confinement. >> what was life like for those four years for you? >> well, i mean, it was terrible. it was lonely. it was -- scary. bleak. and really wasn't -- it wasn't until, looking back in hindsight, in reflection, that i was able to see what had really happened. when i was there, it was -- it wasn't even -- there wasn't any sense of reality around it. so it wasn't like i was sitting in my cell thinking, oh, this is what solitary confinement is like. i wonder what the damage is going to be? it wasn't until i looked back and was able to live with other people and saw how they were operating and the way i

operated, just as far as day to day, anxiety level, sleep patterns. just the kinds of things that occupied my thoughts versus what i saw other people paying attention to. it was night and day. >> explain that difference. you're saying that the experience of solitary, aside from the actual experience while you were in it, has had lasting psychological effects for you now that you are rehabilitated and out in the world and a contributing member of society. that experience still lingers for you. what are those effects? >> sure. so i'm a student. and, you know, i'll read a book, maybe if i get an assignment to read a book, i'll have to read it no less than three times and typically take copious notes. and nothing sticks. i'm always kind of, you know, paying attention to my surroundings in a hypervigilant way. every -- all the different facets of my daily life carry very heavy consequences. you know.

after having been in solitary confinement, for what i thought was pretty, i don't know, it was -- i don't think it -- i don't think the fairness level was, you know -- the crime fit the punishment, so to speak. >> let me ask you this. we talked to the department of corrections in california today. and this is the statement they had. i want to get your response to it. they said, there is no so-called solitary confinement in california prisons. the security housing units at pelican bay state prison, there is no unit within the department of corrections and rattle that could be described as solitary confinement. the shu is specifically designed to house offenders whose conduct endangers the safety of others or the security of the prison." what's your response to that? >> sure. so far, one of the hunger strikers has perished. so, i mean, this is serious enough that people are refusing food and refusing, you know,

life, you know, the life, the meager means to life that's being offered to them, they're taking this to their graves. so to suggest that this doesn't constitute solitary confinement or it's not even worth looking at is ridiculous. but, i mean, just -- what is solitary confinement? some of these people haven't touched another human being in excess of 30 years. they haven't, you know -- they haven't -- in any meaningful way they haven't left their cells for anything other than, you know, a modicum of movement. maybe 10, 20 feet away from their cells for 10, 20, 30 years. i mean, what are we talking about when we say solitary confinement? they're alone. they're desperate. they're willing to die. they are dying. i mean, to act like there's no issue is absurd. >> steven sifra, i want to they' really thank you for sharing your story with us tonight. [ tires screech ]

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hurry in to your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for 1.99% financing during our certified pre-owned sales event through september 3rd. folks have suffered from frequent heartburn. but getting heartburn and then treating day after day is a thing of the past. block the acid with prilosec otc, and don't get heartburn in the first place. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. [announcer] there's no hiding the beneful baked delights.from new heartfuls are made with real bacon... ...and oven-baked to crisp perfection. add a soft apple-flavored center ...and say no more. new heartfuls from beneful baked delights. spark more play in your day. some brokerage firms are. but way too many aren't. why? because selling their funds makes them more money.

which makes you wonder -- isn't that a conflict? search "proprietary mutual funds." yikes! then go to e-trade. we've got over 8,000 mutual funds, and not one of them has our name on it. we're in the business of finding the right investments for you. e-trade. less for us. more for you. the fund's prospectus contains its investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses, and other important information and should be read and considered carefully before investing. for a current prospectus, visit etrade.com/mutualfunds. i'm chris hayes. join me as we examine the challenge of climate change and what america can do to meet it.

it's already 2013 and we still haven't seen any flying cars like we were promised in so many movies and tv shows about the future. but we look to be on a precipice of an absolute automotive revolution that could save the planet and your life. first i want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today beginning with one man's quest for religious freedom. nukosh novi of the czech republic fought the government for the right to wear a head covering in his i.d. he belongs to the church of the flying spaghetti monster. the devout are encouraged to wear a pasta screener on their heads. they call themselves pasta-farians. as think progress reports a check government spokesperson says mr. novi's request complies with the laws of the czech republic is permitted if it does not hide the face to which we say, thanks be to god ramen.

the second awesomist thing on the internet is a humbling public service announcement. the inventor of gif pronounces it like jif. we've all been mispronouncing the name of hell vet ka. the typeface seen in many a corporate logo. why should we trust ralph her irman? he's european, he knows what these sorts of things. mr. herriman is offering the proper pronunciation on his website. he's thus far only taken on the classy fonts of the old world so allow me to offer up the proper pronunciation of the foreaccessible typefaces. comic sans. and times new roman. and the third awesomest thing on the internet, it's first friday of august. with any luck you've been drinking since 2:00 and chances are after viewing this show

you'll be ready to cut a rug. it's importance to have the song of the summer ready to go on your play list. robin thicke's "blurred lines." it has all the makingings of the perfect summer song from a perfectly man scaped singer to parodies galore. jimmy fallon along with roots and robin thicke put a new spin on the song with the help of instruments used in music class. ♪ ♪ maybe it's human nature just let me live ♪ ♪ good girl ♪ i know you want it, i know you want it, i know you want it you're a ♪ ♪ good girl >> although i don't know about you but could have used more cowbell. find the links for tonight

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at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. the year that i took office, my administration pledged to reduce america's greenhouse gas emissions by about 17%. from their 2005 levels, by the end of this decade. and we rolled up our sleeves and we got to work.

we doubled the electricity we generate from wind and the sun. we doubled the mileage our cars will get on a gallon of gas by the middle of the next decade. >> one of the things president obama did in his big climate change speech earlier this summer was focus on a bit of good news in the world of climate. carbon emissions are noun. the conventional wisdom is emissions are down to their lowest level in two decades because of fracking. but that is just part of the story. a recent study by co2 scorecard group, an environmental research organization out of florida, says that half of the 4% drop in u.s. emissions from 2011 to 2012 came from lower energy use. and a big chunk of that came from americans driving fewer miles and using more fuel-efficient vehicles. only one-quarter of that drop came from natural gas. america's one of the most car-dependent places on on earth. while some of that has to change the brute fact that we have a massive, expensive built infrastructure that exists as it is and that requires lots of cars. i'm talking about our wide

stretches of road infrastructure, the sprawling transit system that we've developed. this means the fight against climate change can be fought by driving less but also by making cars that contribute dramatically less carbon pollution. this week bmw unveiled their first-ever electric car. the i3. with the hope of challenging nissan, chevrolet and tesla, the three companies that hold almost 75% of the market for electric cars. these cars aren't cheap. the bmw i3 starts around $70,000. tesla is notable for being the first successful american car startup in almost 100 years. in may the company paid off a $465 million government loan. nine years ahead of schedule. it plans to have a network of high-speed center charger stations that will be expanding throughout the country by year end which will allow you to drive from l.a. to new york just on battery power. since the dawn of the automobile, dreamers have dreamt of a mass-produced, affordable

electric car. we may now find ourselves on the threshold of that reality. joining me, eddie alterman, editor in chief of "car and driver" magazine. nathaniel green, director at the natural resources council. if you're shifting from oil in the tank of a car to an electric car that's powered on the grid, if that grid is powered by coal energy, are you actually getting a benefit from the per pecttive of the planet, from the perspective of carbon? >> well, right now, you plug in a car anywhere in this country and you're doing better than the average car on the road. so yes. >> even right now? >> right now. >> beginning now, the answer is yes? >> yes. these provide us a real benefit. if you plug in an estate where we start to make a switch to more renewable power, clean wind, solar power, you're doing better than the new cars coming out, the new hybrids. these electric vehicles provide a real benefit right now to us. the really cool thing about them is you plug them in now, they're doing the benefit, as we get our

grid cleaner and cleaner, they get cleaner and cleaner. >> they get cleaner and cleaner as the grid gets cleaner and cleaner, the technology is going to use that grid technology. i feel like the electric car this is futuristic dream, almost this lefty cliche, why don't we have an electric car that we've been dreaming about? is this a real thing? are we actually going to get the mass-produced electric car revolution? >> i'm not sure we're ever going to have an electric car that sells in the same numbers as the toyota corolla or even the chevy cobalt. but i think we're -- the market's splintering so you have enough people interested in buying electric cars and hybrid electric cars that will go out and do it. toyota didn't sell a single hybrid in the year 1998. and they've sold over 3 million priuses. >> was there a slow uptick on hybrids? >> oh, absolutely. what happened at the beginning of hybrids was they were super expensive compared with -- it's not that they're any cheaper now, but car prices have kind of come up to where hybrids are.

so, yeah, high prices hurt them at the beginning and also the technology wasn't familiar. and now high brilds, at least the toyota hybrids, pretty much drive like anything else. and that's where we have to get with electric cars for them to get big numbers. >> because i'm a liberal caricature, i of course drive a prius myself, that's a great car, i love it. that doesn't come from any toyota sponsorship. eddie alterman, do you think this is hyper-re all? >> i think it's a little overhyped to some extent. i look at it as sort of a spectrum. we have to get to more electrification and that's going to happen. but i don't think it's going to happen all at once. you know, we're projecting that in 2014, there will be .3% of new cars sold that are battery electric vehicles. a very, very long way to go. but i think you really do have to look at it as a spectrum from pure internal combustion all the way to something like a fuel cell electric vehicle. >> here's what i thought was interesting. i read that tesla has grabbed 8% of the luxury market just this

year. seems to me like you could imagine a trajectory, deed pending how the price goes. the iphone was $799 when it came out. that's a luxury item, $800 for a phone. they're now $99. is there evidence to think we're going to see a cost curve like that where we could get town to something that's actually affordable? >> i think there really is. the electric vehicle is the fastest-growing segment of the auto market. it's starting from a tiny, tiny base. >> of course. >> percentages are easy to achieve. it's like a consumer electronic product. and because the battery, the huge expense, so if we can get the volume is what we're starting to do, past 100,000 vehicles probably this year, and that starts to drive out the cost. i think these are going to really be a consumer product. >> the other thing i think is fascinating about tesla is the way they are trying to disrupt and reinvent the entire market of how cars are sold, mickey. they have been pushing, they want to sell directly, they don't want to go through the dealership cabal. they've had -- north carolina was going to essentially ban them from selling directly.

and then they dropped that piece of legislation. but they have had a hand to hand combat fight in a lot of states over this. and they seem to be doing pretty well at winning. could this change the car market in general if they win, mickey? >> you know, ford was one of the companies that tried to own its own dealerships and it had to throw in the towel on that idea. but they were trying to do it with mass market cars. tesla is a very high-end product. and tesla's only going to sell about 15,000 model-s cars this year so it's not really a big of a market threat. but what they're doing is changing the way people at that end of the market are treated in the way that they go buy cars. i was in a tesla dealership in scottsdale, arizona. they can't actually sell me a tesla there but they were very kind, they gave me a real walk-around the model-s if i wanted one, they said they would arrange for a test drive if i wanted one. here, sit in our cafe, that kind of thing. so it really is a boutique product and it's being sold as a

boutique product. and even some luxury carmakers have tried to do this. but they haven't done it in the way that tesla has. >> stick did around, i want to talk about the brave new world of self-driving cars which i think is fascinating and possibly could save thousands of people's lives. nathaniel green. thank you so much. >> great to be here. new car standards are helping the environment. the fact remains, cars kill a lot of people. we come back, we'll talk about advances in technology that are making cars safer by removing the human element. with my dentures. i love kiwis. i've always had that issue with the seeds getting under my denture. super poligrip free -- it creates a seal of the dentures in my mouth. even well-fitting dentures let in food particles. super poligrip is zinc free. with just a few dabs, it's clinically proven to seal out more food particles so you're more comfortable and confident while you eat. super poligrip free made the kiwi an enjoyable experience. [ charlie ] try zinc free super poligrip.

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we're talking about the automotive future of the united states, how we can drive safer and live longer. karl brower, senior director of

kelly blue book. eddie, we have a tremendous amount of auto fatties in this country. there's about 32,000 highway deaths every year. compare that to rail, 759. aviation, which is 494. and zero commuter airline deaths. it's always amazing to me our risk tolerance for driving is so much higher. if you had subway fatalities that were anything like what cars are, even proportion or per capita, no one would go on the subway. the same is true of planes. yet we tolerate it from cars. one possible revolutionary technology would be removing human drivers and having computer-driven cars so that people can't get drunk behind the wheel, can't text behind the wheel, can't fall asleep. how close is that to a reality? >> that technology's already front loaded into the cars right now. i think the difference between rail and cars is in cars you have this feeling of control. that you're in command of this thing. you're not just on a plane, you're actually in charge of the

vehicle. so what's strange is, you know, these semi-autonomous cars, they're already on the road now. they're wresting that control away from the driver and it's eerie. i was in a new mercedes-benz s-class and that is semi-autonomous. it keeps itself between the lanes. it will actually steer for you. it has to remind you to put your hands on the wheel. it's like the ultimate texting machine. >> this is interesting. we're showing video of a blind man who -- visually impaired man who's in a google self-driving car. google's gotten a lot of press from their self-driving cars. what i'm hearing from you is incrementally and marginally self-driving ability is entering the market right now? >> it's not a technological hurdle. it's more a legal hurdle. >> right. because we have to figure out insurance. karl, i think the other thing i imagine is there's a psychological hurdle in car drivers that you would have to overcome for them to get behind the wheel of a self-driving car. >> well, in some drivers of course. i think there's also a

psychological part of some drivers that are like, how soon can i give this up so i don't have to deal with it anymore? it depends on the the driver. i do think there's going to be this transition, and eddie's totally right, the technology isn't the issue. it's stringing together the legal and the technology across brands and types of cars. but individually, the cars that are coming out contain wind the cars, it's pretty much there, it's getting them to talk to each other, getting them to be aware of stop lights that are coming up and traffic flow, and that technology basically exists too. but having them all talk to each other, who's going to be liable when something breaks? that's pretty dicey. >> that's the fascinating thing. i'm hearing from you guys basically the technology is there. you can see video right now on the internet of factories where there's basically self-driving vehicles zipping past each other with massively dangerous chemicals that they're holding and nothing ever goes wrong, more or less, because they're computers. mickey, what are the frontiers and the obstacles legally to creating a legal framework where this could work?

>> well, i'm thinking about a couple of things. i'm here in ann arbor, michigan, and the epa and the transportation department have a pilot study going on here where there are little devices spread around our sidewalks and devices set up to cars. so if you meet one of these devices and there's no traffic, it might change the light for you. so it's not just the cars themselves, it's the little things embedded in the infrastructure. and that's pretty exciting because you know how long you sit at a light sometimes and nobody's coming. and you wonder, can i go? can i run the light? not that anyone would. but i think the legal hassles here are what if a self-driving or self-assisted car goes crazy and scoots through a light and hits somebody? you know. who's at fault? is it you the driver? is it the manufacturer? i mean, that's going to be a field day for a lot of lawyers. i think the car companies want it to be bullet-proof before they go farther than they've gone already. >> you can imagine with collision if you have two cars,

you know -- which -- right now we sort of adjudicate this in terms of who's at fault. presumably you could use the same metrics offed a jut case to figure that out. you would have the manufacturer, you'd have the driver, you'd also have the softwaremaker, they're different than the company that actually made the physical car. is there anyone working on this? seeps to me that i kind of want the driverless future to come as quickly as possible. because i think it would be awesome to be able to, i don't know, read or talk to someone while you were actually driving somewhere. but is anyone making -- in the case of tesla you have an actual company that's fighting to kind of create the infrastructure that's going to make an electric car future possible, maybe. is there anyone doing that legally on self-driving cars? >> it's very ad hoc. and i know that the automotive manufacturers lobby is working on it and they're trying to string it together. also what mickey was saying in ann arbor that's happening, the vehicle to vehicle

communications study, that's going to factor into this. but as of now, it's really the manufacturers pushing for it. but in a way they're almost pushing for their own demise. they're pushing for, you know, the autonomous vehicle. what's going to differentiate brands at that point? it's going to be a very, very interesting -- >> the other problem here, the other challenge in terms of market entry, tesla can enter its own -- you could drive an individual tesla on the grid as it exists now. how do you start selling individual self-driving cars? they have to be embedded in a whole system, right? >> right. how do they interact with all the cars that aren't self-driving? you're not going to have a day where you wake up and all the unconnected, quote on quote, cars are not allowed on the road anymore, or maybe you are, which is scary for those of us who have muscle cars and stuff. there's going to be a transitional period where some cars are connect and the some aren't and i don't know how much that's going to mess of things. i think of the movie "i, robot" will smith did a couple of years ago. i think that's a very good

representation of where it could go. where you're supposed to let your car be driven by the system but you could take control if you wanted to. everyone in the movie was yelling at will, what are you doing, driving your own car? >> eddie alterman of "car and driver," karl brower of kelly blue book, i really enjoyed that, thank you very much. melissa harris perry sitting in for rachel. there's lots of folks out there that are very happy to see you. >> that's very, very kind. thanes, chris. and thanks to you at home for staying with us for the next hour. now, this was the scene right around 3:00 this afternoon on the steps of the u.s. capitol in washington. everybody out! everybody out! time to go! you don't have to go home but you got to live the heck out of here. yes, there was a mass exodus out of washington today as the house of representative s officially adjourned for their august recess this afternoon. and like teenagers on the last day of school, members of congress just bolted for the exits toy.